Comments on: Our Mother, Who Art In Heaven… http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/ Called out of our isolation and into community, fumbling into God's grace, daring to listen deeply to the Spirit and each other, and freed by Christ to work, rest, dream, and play in God's kingdom, mysteriously engaging with the Trinity in healing the world. Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:57:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: ryan http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-228 ryan Fri, 22 May 2009 19:42:22 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-228 That's a good critique Ken and a good challenge... I think we are up for it. The trick is to naturalize it, so that we're not having to constantly build a rational that is defensive or hypervigilant, but simply feel at home with God our Mother. In talking about this with other folks it seems that this might only be a revelation to our Evangelical/Baptists/Pentecostal friends and not as new or exciting to our ELCA Lutheran community who has been in this gender conversation for much longer and are like, "Duh". I'm working on a rebuttal to myself, and I think it's a good one! That's a good critique Ken and a good challenge… I think we are up for it. The trick is to naturalize it, so that we're not having to constantly build a rational that is defensive or hypervigilant, but simply feel at home with God our Mother. In talking about this with other folks it seems that this might only be a revelation to our Evangelical/Baptists/Pentecostal friends and not as new or exciting to our ELCA Lutheran community who has been in this gender conversation for much longer and are like, “Duh”. I'm working on a rebuttal to myself, and I think it's a good one!

]]> By: ryan http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-110 ryan Fri, 22 May 2009 13:42:22 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-110 That's a good critique Ken and a good challenge... I think we are up for it. The trick is to naturalize it, so that we're not having to constantly build a rational that is defensive or hypervigilant, but simply feel at home with God our Mother. In talking about this with other folks it seems that this might only be a revelation to our Evangelical/Baptists/Pentecostal friends and not as new or exciting to our ELCA Lutheran community who has been in this gender conversation for much longer and are like, "Duh". I'm working on a rebuttal to myself, and I think it's a good one! That's a good critique Ken and a good challenge… I think we are up for it. The trick is to naturalize it, so that we're not having to constantly build a rational that is defensive or hypervigilant, but simply feel at home with God our Mother. In talking about this with other folks it seems that this might only be a revelation to our Evangelical/Baptists/Pentecostal friends and not as new or exciting to our ELCA Lutheran community who has been in this gender conversation for much longer and are like, “Duh”. I'm working on a rebuttal to myself, and I think it's a good one!

]]> By: notarev http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-109 notarev Wed, 20 May 2009 23:41:28 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-109 Ryan --<br>A well-written and thoughtful piece. So, I'm joining, not combating. At the risk of asking for only a veneer of 'parity', I wonder why we explore and wonder about feminine images of God only on Mothers' Day? I know that really pisses off Kaye. If we work toward being a community of little Christs, and seek after God's own heart, and strive to fathom the awe-full being of God, and the absolute scandal of God incarnate, then maybe our work-of-the-people could look at the fullness of God as embracing all of gender on a constant basis, and not just when it is culturally convenient to cry out to Imma / Abba (Mommy! / Daddy!). The Biblical stories are interwoven and tell of our God as holding all and more of our collective experience. Can we do that? Isn't our worship a foretaste of what is to come? -- a rehearsal of the fullness of the reign of God (you've been getting into Dan Erlander recently...)? Let's practice fullness! Let's practice completeness! I just hope that we do not attempt to do so by some kind of proscriptive theological quotas and praxological affirmative action. May our worship and life together embrace the full spectrum of God as we can only begin to imagine!<br>-- /<en Ryan –
A well-written and thoughtful piece. So, I'm joining, not combating. At the risk of asking for only a veneer of 'parity', I wonder why we explore and wonder about feminine images of God only on Mothers' Day? I know that really pisses off Kaye. If we work toward being a community of little Christs, and seek after God's own heart, and strive to fathom the awe-full being of God, and the absolute scandal of God incarnate, then maybe our work-of-the-people could look at the fullness of God as embracing all of gender on a constant basis, and not just when it is culturally convenient to cry out to Imma / Abba (Mommy! / Daddy!). The Biblical stories are interwoven and tell of our God as holding all and more of our collective experience. Can we do that? Isn't our worship a foretaste of what is to come? — a rehearsal of the fullness of the reign of God (you've been getting into Dan Erlander recently…)? Let's practice fullness! Let's practice completeness! I just hope that we do not attempt to do so by some kind of proscriptive theological quotas and praxological affirmative action. May our worship and life together embrace the full spectrum of God as we can only begin to imagine!
– /<en

]]> By: ryan http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-106 ryan Mon, 18 May 2009 14:10:57 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-106 When we talked yesterday I said, "I think this is one of the most important questions of our time" and then I back tracked and said, "well, maybe that's overstated..." But I wanna back track again! I really do think it's one of the very most important questions of our time. Generally speaking, in the '50s men were expected to be macho and women subservient... then a decade later men went into the forest together to talk about their feeling and women burned their bras. And now our culture affords us more fluidity between what is thought of as masculinity and femininity. As some say, "Now we can choose what type of 'energy' to work out of - attraction is about choosing polarity in relationship". <br><br>But is there maleness or femaleness beyond a cultural imposition? Psych and science is seeming to swing back the other way and say "yep - levels of testosterone and estrogen matter." Okay... but is masculinity and femininity simply chemical? Is there another component? Dan Allendar sometimes speaks of gender difference as being - God's strong tenderness within women, and God's tender strength within men. <br><br>I don't know. I gotta do some thinking on this. I want to know what other people think... When we talked yesterday I said, “I think this is one of the most important questions of our time” and then I back tracked and said, “well, maybe that's overstated…” But I wanna back track again! I really do think it's one of the very most important questions of our time. Generally speaking, in the '50s men were expected to be macho and women subservient… then a decade later men went into the forest together to talk about their feeling and women burned their bras. And now our culture affords us more fluidity between what is thought of as masculinity and femininity. As some say, “Now we can choose what type of 'energy' to work out of – attraction is about choosing polarity in relationship”.

But is there maleness or femaleness beyond a cultural imposition? Psych and science is seeming to swing back the other way and say “yep – levels of testosterone and estrogen matter.” Okay… but is masculinity and femininity simply chemical? Is there another component? Dan Allendar sometimes speaks of gender difference as being – God's strong tenderness within women, and God's tender strength within men.

I don't know. I gotta do some thinking on this. I want to know what other people think…

]]> By: Ingrid http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-104 Ingrid Sat, 16 May 2009 15:11:46 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-104 I see what you mean, and appreciate how you put it into words. I guess one of my messy questions has to do with this "neutered' concept - I feel like my idea of gender and sexuality this day in age is vague and confused at best - maybe even "neutered". There's so much freedom in our culture (for the most part) and confusion about roles, community, and power, that I find it difficult to even know what the bottom line is for what makes one female and one male, besides one's anatomy of course, which is a very important starting place. So, how can we lean into who we are as men and women if we don't know what we're supposed to be anymore? Not that it's about what we do, although that's part of it, but moreso who we are in what we do. And how can we honor each others' unique differences if we don't know what we're honoring? How can we both be uniquely strong together without one or the other having to take a back seat to the 'stronger' one? I think this confusion about gender and sexuality in the world also makes it hard for me comprehend God as male and female. I see what you mean, and appreciate how you put it into words. I guess one of my messy questions has to do with this “neutered' concept – I feel like my idea of gender and sexuality this day in age is vague and confused at best – maybe even “neutered”. There's so much freedom in our culture (for the most part) and confusion about roles, community, and power, that I find it difficult to even know what the bottom line is for what makes one female and one male, besides one's anatomy of course, which is a very important starting place. So, how can we lean into who we are as men and women if we don't know what we're supposed to be anymore? Not that it's about what we do, although that's part of it, but moreso who we are in what we do. And how can we honor each others' unique differences if we don't know what we're honoring? How can we both be uniquely strong together without one or the other having to take a back seat to the 'stronger' one? I think this confusion about gender and sexuality in the world also makes it hard for me comprehend God as male and female.

]]> By: Paula http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-103 Paula Tue, 12 May 2009 03:29:06 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-103 sorry... so far looks like you're being joined rather than combated. sorry… so far looks like you're being joined rather than combated.

]]> By: Paula http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-102 Paula Tue, 12 May 2009 03:26:44 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-102 YES YES YES! Thank you, Ryan. It's refreshing to hear these words coming from you... a man (though i'm not surprised these words are from you). I was one of those that said God transcends gender. That was my attempt at trying to equal the playing field that has been and continues to be so one-sided. And I didn't want to go to the other extreme. But, I felt a sense of freedom and relief when I read your response to Ingrid in talking about God transcending gender being a "fearing and fleeing sexuality rather than diving into the complexity of a God that encompasses both... defines both". Thank you for that. You have challenged me to look deeper at the places I fear and flee my own sexuality as well as how I might limit my ideas, understandings and hopes of/for God as it relates to gender as a whole. YES YES YES! Thank you, Ryan. It's refreshing to hear these words coming from you… a man (though i'm not surprised these words are from you). I was one of those that said God transcends gender. That was my attempt at trying to equal the playing field that has been and continues to be so one-sided. And I didn't want to go to the other extreme. But, I felt a sense of freedom and relief when I read your response to Ingrid in talking about God transcending gender being a “fearing and fleeing sexuality rather than diving into the complexity of a God that encompasses both… defines both”. Thank you for that. You have challenged me to look deeper at the places I fear and flee my own sexuality as well as how I might limit my ideas, understandings and hopes of/for God as it relates to gender as a whole.

]]> By: ryan http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-101 ryan Mon, 11 May 2009 22:05:59 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-101 If no one is going to disagree with me, then I will...<br>Anyone? If no one is going to disagree with me, then I will…
Anyone?

]]> By: ryan http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-100 ryan Mon, 11 May 2009 22:02:20 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-100 Well said Ingrid! <br>Personally, I don't buy into the idea that God is 'neutered'... if God creates female and male in God's own image wouldn't that also mean the fullness of sexuality? It seems as if thinking of God as 'transcending gender' is more about us fearing and fleeing sexuality rather than diving into the complexity of a God that encompasses both, that defines both for us. But now you've got me curious about the gnarly questions that come afterward! Well said Ingrid!
Personally, I don't buy into the idea that God is 'neutered'… if God creates female and male in God's own image wouldn't that also mean the fullness of sexuality? It seems as if thinking of God as 'transcending gender' is more about us fearing and fleeing sexuality rather than diving into the complexity of a God that encompasses both, that defines both for us. But now you've got me curious about the gnarly questions that come afterward!

]]> By: Ingrid http://belovedschurch.org/2009/05/11/our-mother-who-art-in-heaven/comment-page-1/#comment-99 Ingrid Mon, 11 May 2009 20:31:35 +0000 http://belovedschurch.org/?p=721#comment-99 beautiful. radically mind-boggling. good. thanks for sharing this.<br>My perception of God is soooooo masculine, even with enlightening insights like this one, and Anne Lamott's he/she-God mentality. It's very new to me. I hope I/we can practice this concept - create new neuropaths for it. And it leads me to wonder a few things, like could this shift in perspective help me to connect with God better if there's this common gender thread? and how can we as men and women begin to reconcile and heal some of the hurt between our genders, so that we don't have to be threatened by one anothers unique strengths, but can celebrate and lean into them rather than hide or water them down? Oh, and so many more big gnarly questions come after that, but I'll leave it at these for now.<br><br>p.s. I really appreciate this format for dialogue and response. beautiful. radically mind-boggling. good. thanks for sharing this.
My perception of God is soooooo masculine, even with enlightening insights like this one, and Anne Lamott's he/she-God mentality. It's very new to me. I hope I/we can practice this concept – create new neuropaths for it. And it leads me to wonder a few things, like could this shift in perspective help me to connect with God better if there's this common gender thread? and how can we as men and women begin to reconcile and heal some of the hurt between our genders, so that we don't have to be threatened by one anothers unique strengths, but can celebrate and lean into them rather than hide or water them down? Oh, and so many more big gnarly questions come after that, but I'll leave it at these for now.

p.s. I really appreciate this format for dialogue and response.

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